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稍微修改了下原理图,把图腾的位置留上
本帖最后由 qq80644864 于 2016-7-7 17:19 编辑
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| | | | | | | | | 楼主,D1,EC1对浪涌的效果有多大,有没有测试过,比压敏电阻会好吗
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 看能量的多少,大了浪费,小了扛不住
二极管选慢管,M7耐电流冲击大,不容易坏
电解电容用了3.3/400v,电容太小,在大雷击来的时候电压会瞬间升高,导致电容鼓包
1看价格,2看实际运用是否足够,我这里如果做10KV的话,爆定了
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 做了一个功率230W的电源,就是交错式的,也用M7+6.8uF,结果有一次调试炸机时,M7跟着坏了,没想明白。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 这里没问题
我猜想是否有这种可能,短路炸机的时候线路中瞬间电流过大,RCD这里对突然来临的电流进行抑制,超过M7能承受的最大电流挂掉
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 电流或对RCD不是影响因素,D到C的电流大小决定于C本身电位的高低。在开机前C是0V时,D--C回路电流最大,C电位上升,D--C的电流逐渐降低。其充电电流取决于D上面的主线电压。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 是的,需要有压差才会对C充电,这没错的
但不是电流的因素的话,M7如何坏,这个就神奇了
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| | | | | | | | | 细看原理图,是无光耦的。这么大电流怕不好控制。MOS Is电流峰值很高,扰动杂波很考验IC。
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| | | | | | | | | | | 单级原边的,市面上出来这种的IC的,已经非常多,不担心这个
刚才板子回来了,焊出来接上去试试就清楚了
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 就是说的大功率,因为这个相对两级来说,省了不少钱,特别是不过认证的,体积又可以做的小,价钱又不高
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| | | | | 选用方案:安森美的NCL30288,听说是新出来的,官网还没什么资料,就拿来试试了
本帖最后由 qq80644864 于 2016-7-9 17:43 编辑
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| | | | | | | 最近有个客户需要过认证,户外防水100W,THD小于10%,无频闪,出价60RMB
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 当然是觉得他亏………………呵呵
还出样给他了,这个更坑
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 交错PFC,频闪搞定,这个价量大能赚一点,量小亏。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 初步给的是6块多,实际上这种IC应该更便宜,就是普通的交错式PFC IC。这里把它做成反激拓扑。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 两个mos,两个变压器,IC还这么贵,感觉跟主动PFC比没啥优势,能不能彻底去掉工频纹波也是个问题
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 其实际成本就是两个单级PFC合并输出成大功率,而比普通单级PFC纹波要低得多。IC不需要这么贵的,最多只能算两颗单管PFC芯片的价格, |
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 能做到这里都很好了,有没这种双PWM交错输出的,介绍一个便宜点的给我试试 |
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 这种芯片你可以多找几个品牌比下价,我只用了上面这种。只有样板,没有量产不知具体价格。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 这个也能去纹波?天方夜谭!
本帖最后由 nc965 于 2016-7-8 09:47 编辑
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 我当然有,只是你这个没有,一点去纹波的意思都没有。 |
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 放上来看看,光说也没用
这个从头到尾没有说去纹波,只是说5%以下而已
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 关于去纹波,我有若干专贴,你可以去检索
5%的纹波,是可以接受的,但不是你这个方案有什么贡献,任何一个普通的方案,也可以做到5%,增加输出滤波电解容量即可。
本帖最后由 nc965 于 2016-7-8 10:33 编辑
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 也花了点时间看你说的去纹波
没数据,没原理,非隔离,也说明不了你这个东西就不是忽悠呢
5%的纹波,你认为单级PFC要什么样的输出电容量能达到?
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 都有实测输出纹波的截图了,不知道你还需要什么数据?
5%的纹波,我认为单级PFC只要使用你这个方案同样的输出电容量就能达到
本帖最后由 nc965 于 2016-7-8 11:15 编辑
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 一般不用算,它一定是吻合的,只有当你怀疑时,可以验证一下。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 你在质疑上面拓扑做到5%纹波时是电解的功劳,而又不能给出一个值,在没有依据的前提下质疑。怎么说呢
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 上面的拓扑是普通反激,只是交错了一下,对输出纹波不会有贡献,我不会去质疑。 |
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 怎样看出是普通反激?
本来想要你给单级PFC做到5%纹波的容量,我也好告诉你我的产品是多少容量,可以对比下。上面你说了这么多,结果你什么依据也没有。
看来我说多了
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 无论在PFC还是单极反激中,交错的作用不是减小纹波的。
主要作用应是提高性能,降低成本。
用两级两个MOS及两个变压器为什么还可以降成本?在反激电源中,当功率比较大时,IPK也会增大,而IPK给MOS管带来的损耗是按指数上升的。有些时候可能用两个小电流MOS成本比用一个大电流MOS可能有优势,总体而言两个MOS加两个变压器的成本是相当的。但在EMC方面却可以大大降低成本,在大的IPK下产生非常大的干扰,另外双管交错反激由于把电流交错,在差模电感上产生峰值电流减小及提高一倍电流频率,这样可以使用更小的电感及电容就可以达到很好的滤器效果。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 我也是感觉去工频纹波作用不大,说白了就是频率*2;就是比频率*2去高频的效果要好些,EMC问题好处理,楼主果断搞样品开一贴
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 频率X2是指开关频率,实际上对于单极来说主要是工频纹波。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 拿输出来说,单级PFC的占空比最大0.5,一个馒头包络波下是占空比0.5的高频波,输出电压一定时,假设输出Ipk高频波的最高峰值幅度为1.那么交错并联PFC输出可假设为理想的占空比1,近似完整馒头波,那这时的Ipk在0.5左右?连续的输出,降低了PK值,同样的滤波条件,纹波是不是更低? |
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 关于纹波,倒回67楼看看。
关于占容比最大0.5?
大多单级PFC采用固定导通时间模式,其频率是变化的。变化范围跟电路参数有关,可以从10%-90%之间变化,不信可以多测测?超过50%是很常见的。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 你例几个芯片,看看有几个不是固定导通时间的?你抓几个波形上来看看?
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 固定时间变频没错,用在单级PFC其实占空比不超50%,可以看看实际单级PFC的产品
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 这有要逼我去下实验室的节奏呀!!!!
为什么占空比不超过50%?有理论依据吗?
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 你别拿boost PFC的占空比来说事,这个估计大伙都知道会大于50%的
单级反激PFC,你试试大于50%,而不加斜坡补偿的,我挺想看,涨涨见识
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 呵呵!!!又是一个小白,还大伙都知道???
再给你科普下吧,
请打开Sanjaya 精通工关电源设计 第二版 ,第496页 第11行。
出现次谐波不稳定有三个条件:电流型控制,连续导通模式和占空比超过50%。
显然,CRM是排除了在外的,还有大多单极PFC芯片是电压型芯片,而不是电流型芯片。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 你别拿boost PFC的占空比来说事,这个估计大伙都知道会大于50%的
单级反激PFC,你试试大于50%,而不加斜坡补偿的,我挺想看,涨涨见识
看来这些字要加红才能看清
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 先来说说我哪里说错?boost PFC占空比会大于50%,错否?
单级反激PFC,不加斜坡补偿的情况下不大于50%,错否?
错了请指出
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 一个几十年的话题了,也没什么好多说,要是不明白我想你也一时半会不会明白。
占空比大于50%会带来不稳定并限于正激,反激,boost等所有架构适用。
占空比大于50%只是一个前提条件,为什么是50%在这论坛其它贴里我好像见过有人说的因为小于50%振荡是衰减的,而大于50%是递增的。显然并不是占空比小于50%就一定是稳定的,只能说这个振荡是可以接受的。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 先来说说我哪里说错?boost PFC占空比会大于50%,错否?
单级反激PFC,不加斜坡补偿的情况下不大于50%,错否?
错了请指出
先说说我说的哪里错了,别一副就你什么都懂的样子,你不懂我也不懂,别人也不懂?
你上面说开通时间固定,还很肯定的说我错了,我用实测波形回答你,我的话你也直接说一下让我知道哪错了
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | PFC架构不管你是反激还是BOOST,也不管你是CCM或者CRM抑或 DCM,或者Ton固定或者Toff固定,占空比肯定而且必须会有超过50%的时段,这个不用抓波看,秒伏平衡法则是所有拓扑的基础,加上小学5年级算术算一下就知道了,Vin*Ton=VOR*Toff。 Vin是一个馒头波这个大家都懂了,馒头波是从0开始的,也就是说Vin有=0的时刻,我们不说0,那样会无解,就说Vin=10V这个时刻,假设你设定的VOR=90V,自己算一下占空比是多少。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 请问,你算变压器的时候会不会按Vin=10V来定占空比
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 不要转换话题,我们只说PFC反激有没有占空比大于50%的工作状态,不讨论变压器计算方法
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 另外我想说一下,BOOST和反激并没有本质的区别,反激就是基于BUCK-BOOST,而BOOST就是输出电压叠加在了vin上面的BUCK-BOOST,电源系统工作的时候他自身并不会知道也并不会理会你是反激还是BOOST,他只需遵循秒伏平衡法则,占空比不会超过50%的PFC拓扑我倒是没见过,不管是非隔离的BOOST还是隔离的PFC反激,你见过吗 |
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 这里讨论的前提条件不就是你上面几楼 红字内容吗
这个你貌似刷了好几楼
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Vin=10V吗?
你理解的占空比是在波谷周围最大,我理解的占空比是计算的时候达到波峰时候的占空比,论坛的方向是完全不同了
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 上面说的是单级PFC反激哦,是说斜坡补偿哦,那肯定说是整个工作周期,整个波及范围了,难道系统稳定与否你是单单拿某个点来说?
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 嗯,是单级反激PFC没错,但是这个占空比我们两理解不同
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 超过50%不是不可以,会有MOS的应力和环路稳定等问题,超过50%产品性价比会变差。所以见到的都是不超0.5的,不信你可以去测试下。 |
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 占空比超过50%多的是。
特别在DC-DC中最为常见。AC-DC中只能说太少,并不是没有。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | DC to DC是另外话题,
AC to DC太少是有它的道理,就占空比大于0.5,MOS的耐压和损耗会急剧上升,选材要求高很多。
上面讲的单级PFC,几乎没有。当然上面讨论的问题并没主要说明。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 其实不同在于其交错输出,并不简单地看面两个单级PFC并联。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 这个我知道纹波能做到比普通的小,但是想不到是能小这么多
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 这种芯片要是待机功耗能做低就喜欢了。纹波不算很低,还可以。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 不调光的LED电源,要求待机功耗,我觉得就是瞎搞。 |
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 唉,怎么可能有万能的东西呢。
小轿车拉货,比不上拖拉机。
拖拉机速度,比不上小轿车。
难道,想要个 又能拉货,又能跑快的车。
要真设计出这样的车,油耗又大了,有人买么。
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连好线,准备发出去打板了
本帖最后由 qq80644864 于 2016-7-8 18:01 编辑
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 这个做了测试才知道,低不到哪去,太高的话,再上25 |
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 唉,怎么那么多人画的板都比我的好看呢,有棱有角,能弯能直的.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 单级原边就是好啊,不过这板看起来有点空啊,固定外壳的吗
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 同意。
我觉得,交错也只是减小高频纹波,而不能减小工频纹波。
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| | | | | | | 新IC而已,目的只是为了验证供应商所说的,能做到100W,纯IC推
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| | | | | | | | | 外置MOS的IC都能做到100W吧,还有做不到100W的?
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | 还有一种源极驱动的IC,功率电流要流过IC的,那种虽然外置MOS,但也会受限。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 90V VDS GS
264V VDS GS
264V VDR
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 能压下来,代价有点大
试过开机不冲过稳态时刻的尖峰电压,还算安全
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 这个主要看MOS品质了
上次产线把500V的MOS当作650V的来用,尖峰电压在700V,没坏
但是咱设计不能这样搞
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 批量是不敢这样玩。
不过从这个现象来看,应该不是Vds比标称高的原因,有可能是MOS本身能抗瞬时高幅尖峰。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 嗯,用的是平面MOS,也是个牌子货,所以扛下来了,这个也真是运气,我也是看坏机子才发现的,不知道产线是怎么用上的
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 版主90V 输入的时候 VDS 平台期那里为什么会后面翘起来那么多
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 这是过EMI的,做到92是相当好了,期待你的大作
我会把所有测试的结果传上来,一起对比下咯
本帖最后由 qq80644864 于 2016-7-13 17:59 编辑
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 100w的单级PFC可以做到90%--92%,看你的用料和匹配程度,我目前50W的效率220V 90%。
本帖最后由 hy.power 于 2016-7-13 20:17 编辑
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 嗯,用普通料,这是做产品,不是做单个样品,考虑多方面,各种余量留足,效率反而不是最主要 |
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| | | | | | | | | | | 嗯,这个只是初步估计的效率,很多产品不是效率高的就是好产品的
当然,效率高,可靠性又好,这是大家都希望的结果
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 认证还是要的,如果没有认证,感觉产品还是不完善。性能与价格达到一个最合理点。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 这IC不好调,110和220开机都没问题,但是开机220V的时候往下调到200,就开始啸叫了,再往下叫的更凶
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 90-220输入,电流相差100mA,220-260,电流偏差300mA
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 啸叫的解决了,确实是这个COMP的问题,加大一点就好了
线性调整率通过调整CS脚跟MOS间的电阻可以改善,现在相差80mA左右
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | CS脚和MOS之间的电阻具体指的哪个电阻啊版主,我看哪里电阻有一堆 |
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 现在的新问题,尖峰很大,应该是跟感量太小了关系挺大
AE=170 24:9:5,LP=160uH 漏感5uH,mos的整下来了,次级二极管的如果消掉损耗的效率太大
本帖最后由 qq80644864 于 2016-7-15 18:18 编辑
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 在试不同的变压器绕法,效率没多大提升
后面直接改成3225的变压器,效率升了1.5%左右,然后把1%的效率去压尖峰去了,现在MOS,622V,肖特基192V。前凸后翘……
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 前凸后翘很性感。
肖特基耐压可以加大点,让MOS管好受的
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 改了下匝比和绕法,MOS下来了不少,输出就换成快恢复了
现在的问题又回到线性了,难调
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 应该说这个IC的可调性不高,各个参数难平衡,他的负载调整率就做的挺好的 |
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 原边的IC都这样,没有多少可调的。要么变压器,要么Comp。相对来说,大功率我更倾向于副边反馈。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 线性用原边的还是可以调整的好的,现在这边有做不过认证的100W也是单级的,线性就挺好
其实这种功率用两级我是推荐的,单级,就看后面的电容吧
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 是的,这交错的不错,想玩玩 本帖最后由 qq80644864 于 2016-7-19 14:02 编辑
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 效率跟我猜想的差不多了,用上普通的料,15N65,220效率87.6%,110效率85.3%
换上coolmos,效率平均上升一个点,但是成本上升的太厉害
还是被困在线性调整率上,已经调整不到了。。。
现在先进行下一步,EMI
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 200mA稍大一点点,也不算很大。可以把220V时做到偏上限,110V稍偏下。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 90V输入峰值电流波形和VDS波形
264V VDS
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 这个IC是逐周期检测,检测VS脚电压给反馈给COMP,确定COMP电压和CS脚电压,限制峰值
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 还是不理解,输出电流跟这些有什么关系?理论上说当输出电压及输入电压稳定时,COMP电压也是稳定的对不?
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 在不跟随输入电压的情况下,是通过什么方式让CS对应成馒头波?就算控制了CS,那如何实现恒流呀?
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 不跟随的情况下也是这种情况,CS和COMP都是馒头波的,直接上图:
至于不跟随输入电压的情况下,那是根据ZCD判定
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 不好意思,开始没明白你的意思,你可以测下COMP波形,应该是一个直流电平,也只有小部份波动。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 至于直流电平,那是普通反激的状态,就是有大电解的那种
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 比较奇葩,根据ZCD和CS检测的那个电阻,R6和R14.
就是因为这样,好难调整
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 我理解是,CS/ZDC内部靠直流分量和交流分量两个信息来实现电压和电流的检测。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Vs是用来跟踪电流相位和大小的。输出电压还是取决于Cs/ZCD
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 跟预料中的差不多,板子一次性可以过,估计后续改的板子会删减一些东西
100V
240V
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 估计是可以省一些东西下来的,板子也需要改改
前几天用别的板子打雷击,桥后带电解的,爆了好几个,容量太小,扛不住
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 还是用回我的老方案,压敏搞定
现在老板不说电解的好了
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 刚才调整了下EMI参数,大概是省了1块多钱左右吧
100L
100N
240L
240N
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | EMI用的什么参数?记得以前做个70W的,勉强过认证,你这个贴地线在走啊
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 前头LCL,桥后CLC,变压器AEBCBEA,外围线包方向1.1T屏蔽,输出磁环
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 变压器和PCB Layout好,所以EMI好,前面的基本都有用到。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 板子走的还算满意了,主功率环路和吸收都算小的,其他的信号回路就避开干扰源,随便走就行了
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 现在等点温胶回来,点下温度
然后把雷击等级提升一下,差模和共模都按照6KV来做了
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 这个功率段的拿去搞路灯的话,一般是10m高度,还是为了安全保障吧
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | qq8版主,单极PFC整流后那个电感L1的感量是怎么确定的?测过一些产品,有的几百uH,有的1mH左右.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 我能说根据经验来的吗。。。要让我去算,我可以说我不会算这个家伙
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 确实,这么高是为了户外产品,室内这个要求那是浪费材料的。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 室内的话,看客户需求了
昨天看到一个室内的,被客户要求2.5KV
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 实时播报:现在在打6KV差模,炸的一塌糊涂 IC,MOS,CS电阻这个回路全部烧掉
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 第一次碰到改参数没效果的情况发生
IC炸的不成样,怀疑不是配置问题了,应该是线路哪里串过来
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 是的,差模的能量太大了,一下疏通不了的话,就是炸
几个板子都废掉了,只能重新焊几个试了
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 壳子大就是有好处,温升一点问题都没有,变压器的温度最高,TA=50℃下,变压器初级绕线的温度为93℃
目前剩下的就是这个雷击了,怀疑是否为线路问题了,怎么改动都过不了,加放电管都不行,痛苦中,板子炸了好几个,主要损耗部件是功率环
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 我现在也是怀疑走线问题了,5兄帮忙看下哪里需要改动的
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 93楼,上面的PCB图就是实际的图了,另外我桥后没用那个大电解的了,都是用的压敏
保险后一个14D,大共模之后的桥前一个10D,桥的L后一个10D
本帖最后由 qq80644864 于 2016-8-18 16:46 编辑
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 布局看还好,Pai型滤波后的DRC靠高压线并把IC启动点接后点看是否有用。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | IC的VCC启动是在第二个CBB上走过来的
现在的DRC已经没用了,改为压敏,在PCB上跳的
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 电容小了没作用,电容大了又比压敏贵很多
先试试DRC吧
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 差模这个从AC线入,吸收不下来就到MOS处,估计还是吸收不够。这种大功率的很麻烦,小功率的用保险电阻非常好用,大的用不起。AC端的压敏往后移,尽量先经过电容电感后吸收
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 你说的这些方法我都试过了,AC一进来用压敏串放电管都试过,这么强大的吸收都搞不下,有大问题啊
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 估计是找到问题的原因了,但是还不能那么确定,等两天吧,我公布测试结果
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
楼主,你这传导都在地上滚了逆天啊,图中的这几个差模电容 工模电容 工模电感的位置有什么讲究吗,能有一种比较中庸的摆放位置法吗
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 看上图,你谷底没有滞后,这是正确的驱动。
看下图,你的周期大约13.2小格,谷底滞后了一个小波(大约0.9小格),由于原边电流峰值是固定的,这意味着你输出降低了0.9/13.2=6.8%,对应电流降低了3A×6.8%=205mA。
这种事,点一下自己就应该明白。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 原边的峰值电流是低压高,高压低,不是不变
至于为什么会变化这么多,也不是你说的这个原因
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 一开始就知道,调不下来是因为IC限制住了而已,想继续缩小这个调整率,IC就不工作了
至于高低压的波谷,那是IC的特性,输入电压150V-160V以上时就是会在第二个波谷开通了
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 那不是IC的特性,是你没有调整好的缘故。你的调整方法,就是要让他们在任何时候都在同一个谷底导通。如果还有问题,才是IC的问题。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | QQ8版主,做这种原边反馈的机子,我测试了手上几款电源,发现测量次级整流二极管的反向电压的时候,探棒的接地夹子夹到整流二极管的正极会影响电源的输出电流,必须要用隔离探头。你有遇到过这种问题吗?
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 你测你的机子会有这种情况吗?我看了下,示波器的插头接地PIN是剪掉的。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 我测的机子都不会有这种情况的,你试试别的机子会不会这样?
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | YTDFWANGWEI- 积分:109774
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积分:109774 版主 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | YTDFWANGWEI- 积分:109774
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- 主题:142
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- 帖子:45909
积分:109774 版主 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 典型的瞎子摸蟹,还没摸到这里。再说摸到不一定能抓到呀!
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 空板看起来还一般般,放了元件确实好看很多,估计是封装画的不够精细
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 封装还好,主要是变压器和散热片的地方发热严重,避开比较大 |
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 就这点散热还想搞全电压100W单级,灌胶也做不过的,输出电流还是比较大的。你在100Vac下点下温度看看
还有你那个黄百环,在低压输入扛得住?
本帖最后由 Feling 于 2016-8-5 15:30 编辑
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 温升还算蛮好的,这么大个外壳,这么多胶,空间大,热量很容易就散出去了
目前唯一的遗憾,就是雷击这个机子不行了 就此结帖吧!
多谢各位朋友的讨论,在讨论过程中,可能会有诸多争执,只要大家心平气和来讨论,我都是非常欢迎的!
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 活动也快结束了,我就把温升参数放上来吧,其他各项指标都达标,唯一一项:雷击测试不通过。
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| | | | | 楼主辛苦!电源看起来还不错,surge可以试试电感加电解电容的吸收电路。慢慢摸索,加油! |
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| | | | | | | surge第一版本都已经加过,电解电容上到22uF,二极管用到5A,电阻都是2W、100K,打1KV差模,一次就死
果断放弃,现在换别的方案搞了,雷击也已经通过,所以这案子算放弃了,多谢关注
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| | | | xkw1cn- 积分:131263
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- 主题:37517
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积分:131263 版主 | | | | | 打死可能与方案有点关系;但;更多可能出在其它地方。建议先算后试验。
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | 单级PFC过6KV是没有问题的。不加防雷器话,简单处理下过4KV绰绰有余。
打死无外乎:VDS过高,芯片VCC过高(排除其他引脚内部保护处理),桥堆I2T余量不够,走线Y部分不合理。
特别疏忽的是压敏的品质,压敏不行,其他防护完并卵!
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 我们也在整这个方案过雷击,到时我也分享下数据,欢迎各位来探讨,交流!
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